The Sounds of Film with Tom Needham
https://wusb.fm/soundsoffilm
90.1FM Stony Brook NY
Radio Interview
Originally recorded: January 23, 2024
Airdate on the radio and online: February 6, 2024 6pm

Hosted by Tom Needham, the Sounds of Film is the nation's longest-running film themed radio show. For 30 years, the program has delivered a popular mix of interviews and film music.

Tom interviewed Harth about Pierre Guillet’s documentary film The Book of Harth about my art work The Holy Bible Project.

Have a listen to the 30 minute interview below:

Transcript Below:

I did not get to proof read this yet. Catch any errors? Email me. Cheers, Harth

Tom Needham (00:01):

Hi, this is Tom Needham and you are listening to The Sounds of Film. And joining us on the program today is David Gre Harth, a conceptual artist who is featured in the Book of Harth, a multiple award-winning documentary film that was 20 years in the making. It's available on DVD and Video on Demand. The film centers on New York City based conceptual artists. David Greg Harth, who embarked on a a 20 year journey to gather signatures from the most culturally relevant figures of our times and his copy of the Holy Bible. After this decades long Odyssey ended, New York City filmmaker Pierre Glee followed Harth all over the the city and and other places as he raced along to get final signatures to bring this massive undertaking to a close Harth. I wanna thank you so much for joining us on the Sounds of Film.

Harth (01:00):

Thanks for having me.

Tom Needham (01:01):

Yeah. The, the, everybody's talking about this movie. It's played in a lot of film festivals and it features interviews with Noam Chomsky, Kevin Smith, Paul Schrader, John Waters, among other people. It, it's really an incredible piece of work. But before we kind of get into it, I, I, I said at the beginning that you're a conceptual artist. And, and just for our listeners who maybe don't understand what that means, can you explain what it means to be a conceptual artist?

Harth (01:29):

Sure. A lot of my work I'm more concerned about the concept of the work and I'll execute the work in any media necessary to get that idea and concept across. So I'm not a painter, I'm not a photographer. I'm sort of whatever medium is necessary, those are the tools I'll use to execute the concept of the idea.

Tom Needham (01:52):

And can you explain some of the things that you did outside of getting this Bible signed by lots of famous people?

Harth (01:59):

Sure. Yeah, for sure. I, I do a lot of work that involves the participation of another person in order for the work to exist. So, for example, I even had a project where I ate burgers with people. People invited me to have a burger with them. They had a burger, and I had a burger <laugh>, the other person paid for both burgers, and I would give them a little card that says they ate a burger with me. And over the course of about three or four years, I had 175 burgers that other people paid for. This was the project and, and the photo documentation of all the burgers I hate. I also stamp political and social messages on currency and spend it and circulate it. I also take analog photo booth portraits with every person I know and every person. I don't know. I post the photos online and write a little blurb about each person. And if I'm doing that project, that means I need to take photo booth portraits with about 8 billion people. Wow. so a lot of my work also happens over long length of time and requires a lot of dedication.

Tom Needham (03:01):

And when you have things like photographs or o other things like that, that you've taken, are these things ever shown in museums?

Harth (03:12):

I have shown in very small amount of museums and some gallery exhibits. But for the most part, I tend to be an artist that's sort of under the radar with a good fan base and a good audience that's dedicated to following me. But I send, I tend to drift under the radar of the blue chip art world, like all the, the major galleries in Chelsea. But one day, you never know. Right. <laugh>.

Tom Needham (03:39):

And your most famous project is the, the Bible that you had signed by many people, and it's featured in the film. C Can you tell our listeners what your original intent was and, and where it took you over the last 20 years or so?

Harth (03:58):

I honestly don't know what my original intent was, but I knew I wanted to sort of make an artwork that was exploring an intersection between art, religion, and celebrity culture. And the day I'd started it on April 25th, 1997, it was the same day. I said I was gonna do it for 20 years, and I had no idea what kind of adventures it would bring me and what kind of stories I would bet in my life and what kind of people I would meet along the way. So the intent was just, you know, off the cuff, this is what I'm gonna do and we'll see what happens. But yeah, that's, that's what happened. <Laugh>,

Tom Needham (04:40):

When you go up to people, which you show in the film to get them to sign the Bible mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> sometimes you only have a couple seconds, it seems to kind of explain to them what, what you're doing. And I, I don't know if you have a different pitch, but it seemed like a lot of the time you mentioned just like a couple people, like I remember Muhammad Ali and David Bowie, for example. Correct.

Harth (05:09):

But you've interviewed, I mean, Muhammad Ali and David Bowie, they are the probably the most tremendous icons that I have found that any celebrity or significant person out there in, in the world of culture, they always appreciate these two individuals, <laugh>. There's only love for these two individuals. So if I ever need to name drop, if I ever need to say, Hey, you want to be in this because some other people participated, and those other people are these people, it's always sort of an enticing to name drop those two individuals.

Tom Needham (05:44):

I

Harth (05:45):

Sometimes, I, I, I cater, you know, if someone looks hesitant and it's, it's an actor, I might have named a filmmaker or other actors that I knew they were associated. Mm.

Tom Needham (05:58):

Yeah. It it, it's funny. C May maybe our listeners don't know, like, the long list of, of people that you got to sign. C can you just rattle through, besides the two, we already mentioned some of the people that you got to sign this book. 'cause I, I, I think people will find it interesting and impressive.

Harth (06:16):

It's a long list, but Oprah Peter, Gabrielle, BB King Pavarotti, angel Jolie, Brad Pitt Pele, Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, bono, I mean, the, the list just goes on. I mean, over 20 years, you know, I mean, and I live in New York City, so it's, the access to attempt to meet these people is, is greater than if I was living in Wyoming.

Tom Needham (06:50):

One, one of the things that's not crystal clear to me is how much of I don't know an advantage. You said you, like, you're pretty well known for working on this project. Are you, when you go out to get these signatures, are you just doing the same thing that an Autograph Hound is doing, just kind of getting out early and waiting for the person to go out to their car? Or do you have a press pass or some kind of advantage that others don't have?

Harth (07:23):

I do not. I do not have any advantages. I wish, I wish I did, but I don't, I'm, I am just an artist with the Bible standing at the right time at the right place, hoping for the best. But no press pass, no, no secrets. Just, just trying to do it

Tom Needham (07:45):

As, as someone myself who, you know, is always trying to get interviews with people. I I, I just found the whole process fascinating. And I, I was wondering if you can go into, you do in the film in great detail, what's involved? Like, if, if you hear that someone is going to be making an appearance on a Saturday night at seven o'clock, like how much work goes into you being there for that event?

Harth (08:16):

Sure. And so the filmmaker Pierre Gier, he, he followed me around the last year of the project. And so he really documented really greatly what I went through to achieve all the results in this project. But say, I mean, for sorters, there's, there's research. So I need to be aware of what events are happening, what people will be at what event, when, and where. I'd have to be a bit aware of entrances and exits of of a building. And I'd have to prepare myself to, to be truthful mentally and physically. It takes a health toll on you to do this, especially if it's, you know a winter month. And you might have to be prepared to stand out in the cold for 2, 3, 4, 6 hours. Yeah. And you might need to prepare yourself to eat or drink or not drink or not eat, because you might be standing in one position for those six hours and you might not be able to leave.

(09:21):

And then you have to be prepared that you might not even see the person. Or in my case, you might see the person and they might deny. 'cause There are some people that deny it, it takes this toll health wise. It's really hard to do. You're standing on your feet all the time. Quite honestly, the project put me in a space of loneliness a lot. 'cause I often would just, you know, be doing it on my own. And, but I mean that, I, I think that accurately describes sort of what is happening when, when I, I try to go for

Tom Needham (10:00):

People. I appreciated your honesty in the film and that you talked about that loneliness, even used the word depression at times, that in order to do this sometimes you would put in tremendous hours and then it just wouldn't even work out. And you talked about the tremendous highs and the tremendous lows that you feel when it doesn't work out, or when you do get someone and you post it and then people react on social media. Can, can you talk a little bit about that?

Harth (10:33):

It sort of became like a drug almost. You know, you, you get someone to participate and it's a good thing. You know, it, it gives you energy. It gives you energy to go out for the next person. It gave me energy when I had that feedback from my audience who liked the results or en encouraged to go further. So it's still a little bit of a high, I I wouldn't be surprised if there's actual some kind of chemical reaction going on in my brain anytime someone would participate. And then the downside is, you know, you, you're, you might fail. And failure to me is not even seeing the person, not even getting to ask a failure is not when someone declines. It's when you don't even have the opportunity to ask. Mm-Hmm. When you put in all that time and effort and you realize, you know, I, I could have been at home drawing for six hours, but I chose to stand outside in the cold for six hours.

Tom Needham (11:35):

And what was the ultimate payoff that you were hoping to eventually achieve in finishing this project? Is it just something that you just do for yourself because you appreciate this art that you do? Or is it something that, like, you, you, you kind of hinted at earlier that maybe this is something that could go in a museum one day. Is it just a reaction on social media? Is there a potential future monetary payoff that could

Harth (12:08):

Come from this? These are all interesting. Yeah. These are all interesting questions. I, I certainly did not have any payoff in mind. Definitely not monetary. Could I, would I love to see it in a, in a museum gallery exhibition space one day? Yes. I would love that. I, I never did it for the social interactions. I can honestly say that I did it because I felt it needed to exist, and I could not tell you why it should exist. I can tell you that it had a beginning point and an ending point. And sometimes just like an insect is born or a rabbit is born, the the life is there and it leads its life until it no longer has a life. So that's sort of like this work as well. I can explain why it started or the need for its existence. I can only say that it existed and I'm going with the existence, but there was never a, a, a payout intended. That's not why I did it.

Tom Needham (13:20):

We're speaking with Harth, and he's featured in the documentary, the Book of Harth. You're listening to the Sounds of film. It seemed like Pierre, the director of the film was frustrated at times. He was asking you, you know, what does this mean? What does this project mean? And, and you kind of said that you, just as you did, now, that it, it's difficult or you, I don't know if it's just difficult for you to explain it or if you just choose not to, you can't give us any more of a, a reason why you thought it was valuable to have all these very important people sign the Holy Bible.

Harth (14:02):

I think my job as an artist is to create the work. And it's not my job to tell people what I think it might mean to me. Mm. I think when, and our viewer is at a museum standing in front of a painting, right? And when you have 10 viewers standing in front of a painting, that painting might mean 10 different things for 10 different viewers. Right. That painter is not in the room to explain what the painting might mean to them, nor are they there to explain what it should mean to each of those 10 individuals. So I think it's up to the individual to come up with their own assumptions, ideas and thoughts about what this concept, what this work, what this art could possibly mean to them. When I, so I sort of, you know, I created this, it's in existence. O and other people can try to figure out what it means to them.

Tom Needham (14:56):

Yeah. when I was watching the film, I, I remembered a moment from my past that I hadn't thought about in a very long time when I was in college sometimes on on campus, like companies would just show up and just hand out free samples of something. There were always people just handing you things when you were walking to class. And one time I was walking to class and I, I don't know who it was, it was probably a religious group at the school or something, but they handed me a Bible mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I was on my way to class. So I, I I, I don't know why I, I just took the Bible and I went into class and I, and I put the Bible down on my desk, and I just remember some professor at the time walked in and saw the Bible on the desk. I wasn't talking about it or anything. It was just there and freaked out <laugh>, like, like totally like, who brought that into this class? And yeah, I was young at the time, and I, I, I didn't even know that somebody, you know, would ever react like that. But I would imagine that you've seen every kind of reaction possible positive and, and maybe negative. I, I don't know, like, do, do people react in, in all kinds of ways when you, when you present the Bible as the thing that they're going to be signing?

Harth (16:21):

I've never seen any severe negative responses, and I've never had anyone sort of want to steal it or destroy it. For the most part, people are positive, some people are curious, they might ask questions about it. What am I doing? Who else participated? But, you know, the most negative comments or reactions I would get are, are people just denying signing it. But no one's, it hasn't created such a, a, a ruckus, but I understand that religion, it can be a, a touchy subject in, in the realm of the world that we live in, especially today.

Tom Needham (17:04):

Yeah. one thing it seems from the film is that the people who do agree to sign will ask, like, is a certain section of the Bible available to sign? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Can, can you tell me some of the examples of, of people and what parts they signed?

Harth (17:28):

I, I don't have specific examples, but I, I recall Psalm 28, it's pretty filled up. In, in general, some people will pick a passage, some people will sign randomly very, you know, sometimes I'll have the Bible open already, depending on the circumstance. I, I recall at the beginning of Revelations Ono and Hunter Thompson signed, I recall that. But in terms of specific pages, I, I'd really have to dig into my notes. I don't really have that information handy. But I, I did for all those years, I kept detailed notes. I, in my notes, I have who signed where, what they said, what was their demeanor, did they select a passage or not? What time it was, who I was with, the location, et cetera. So I have all that information.

Tom Needham (18:17):

It doesn't come up in the film. And I'm not gonna quiz you, but I'm just curious, like, have you read the Bible? Are you familiar with it or not?

Harth (18:26):

I grew up Jewish. I was even Bar mitzvah. I, in my teenage years, I became atheist. I like to consider myself super atheist, also ordained. So I've performed about seven weddings for friends. And even though I carried around a Bible with me wherever I went for 20 years, I've never read it. <Laugh>, I wish I did. I wish I could. The language is just, is just difficult for me to read. But, you know, I'm, I'm young, so you never know. Maybe in the next 20, 30, 40 years I'll read <laugh>.

Tom Needham (19:01):

One, one of the things that was funny I don't know, to me anyhow, was when at some point in the film, you, you basically said that you, you don't even care about any of these people <laugh> yeah. I mean, you are we,

Harth (19:21):

Are we on the radio <laugh>?

Tom Needham (19:23):

Yeah. Yeah. That it doesn't, we, it doesn't really matter to you, like, and you don't really go on and explain, but is that true that you're, you're not, you're, you're not doing any of this 'cause you're star struck. You really don't care about these artists, or is that just something in the moment, or are you just being funny

Harth (19:46):

Or? Yeah, I'm not starstruck and, you know, a lot of times when I'll go out and there were people, you know, fans that are really there to meet their most iconic, favorite person. Yeah. I'm not that person that's out there for that reason. I'm doing something different where I want people to participate in something that I'm doing. And I, I don't have this envy for celebrities. And it's, it's a very weird culture that we have put these celebrities on these huge iconic pedestals, and they're paid lots and lots of money. And then we have teachers that are trying to educate young people, trying to make the world a better place through education and all the choices that matter with that. But they're getting paid nothing. So it's, what's happening in society is just very abstract. So I, you know, I don't, I don't get starstruck, you know, I mean, I certainly, there are some celebrities I appreciate more than others. You know, obviously like a musician where I really like their music or an artist where I really like their art. That can vary.

Tom Needham (21:07):

So it, it must be sort of a, a strange feeling when you simultaneously don't really care about the celebrity in the, in the way that a super fan might. But at the same time, you realize this is a pretty big deal from my project that I'm getting this name, that will get a reaction will impress people who are following my work.

Harth (21:38):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Tom Needham (21:41):

You must get excited and there was, and not be that excited. It's, it must, yeah. And

Harth (21:47):

Sorry, he, a friend of mine once said to me, the project is not about just one person. Yeah.

(21:53):

And that really is, it really stands out in my memory because it's not about just one per person. So if I miss that one person, this, this huge person that everyone loves in the world, if I miss them, that's okay. It's about collectively all the people, and more importantly, it's about the time period. You know, I did it for 20 years. Right. It's about that, that time period who I had access to in, in that 20 years, who was making a comfortable impact in that 20 years. And if I miss someone, that's okay. You can't change history. You can't do everything in life, you know? That's okay.

Tom Needham (22:33):

Do, do you ever go the normal route of just contacting the person, the manager, the publicist, and just asking, can I just swing by and get the signature? Or does, are there ground rules where you just have to catch them?

Harth (22:52):

So I, I don't know what normal is, but I've never had access to a manager of someone, or, you know, I've never had these addresses or email just phone numbers. So no, I, I haven't, have I written some letters? A handful of letters? Yes. Usually letters don't work. But I can tell you a letter worked with Norman Maller once.

Tom Needham (23:17):

Oh, wow.

Harth (23:17):

And, and that was truly amazing. I I wrote a letter to Norman Maller and his a couple months later, his assistant calls me and says, you know, this is not gonna happen. But, you know, he is doing Asya, Barnes and Noble. He is doing an event trying to get him there. And then a few months later, I get a letter in the mail from Norman Maller, and it was, you know, handwritten. He signed it, he is like, you know, I get a lot of requests, a lot of fan mail, yours warranted response, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He didn't really say if he would do it or not. He just responded to me. A couple months go by, I happened to be on Miami and get a call from his assistant. She's, it's a Monday. She's like, can you, can you come up to normal Miller's house on Wednesday? I said, sure. I flew back to New York early, and I went to Norman Miller's home in Brooklyn, and he invited me inside, picked a passage, took a photo of him, was really nice. And yeah, he signed my Bible. Wow. So, very rare instance. His letter is work.

Tom Needham (24:20):

Did you have any I don't know hopes that when this film hit and you became even better known than you already are, that it would just open you up to just start getting, like, you wouldn't have to be the guy on the street that you would just start getting in. I don't know if you already are, but I would assume being in a film like this, that you would start to get invitations to some of the same events that these different people go to and that you're one of them almost on you know, on their level. Has that started to happen? And if it did, would it change the scope of you asking them or not for a signature in your Bibles?

Harth (25:08):

No, that is a nice idea. It has not happened yet. I'm not getting the invitations to the Met Gala or anything yet <laugh>. But, and I, and obviously I can't say if that would change anything. If it does, I can report back to you and let you know <laugh>, but, you know, I welcome the invitations <laugh>,

Tom Needham (25:26):

I think, I think there's something unique about you getting the signatures, you know, as you said over the last 20 years when you were who you were versus, you know, if some celebrity just went in and asked all his friends to sign it. Right. It would just be a little different, I think, or very different maybe. Yeah. How, how do you feel being featured in a film? That's a, that's a different experience. It's a big deal.

Harth (25:52):

It is a different experience, especially when you see an illustration on, on the poster in DVD that looks like you <laugh> and, you know, when you're, when you watch it on the screen, and it, it's strange. But I think Pierre did a really great job in telling my story Yeah. In such a way that it sort of shows a personal warmth that I think maybe another filmmaker would not have illustrated.

Tom Needham (26:19):

That's interesting. How, how do you think others might do it? They, they might portray you as being obsessive or not a not really being kind to what you do or understanding it.

Harth (26:32):

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I, I have no idea what another filmmaker would do.

Tom Needham (26:37):

How did he get your trust?

Harth (26:40):

How did he and I come across? No,

Tom Needham (26:42):

How did, well, yes, but, but how did he get your trust so that you were willing to be the subject of his documentary?

Harth (26:48):

Yeah. Well, he, he already had an interest in, in doing a, a film about celebrity culture and that, and, you know, especially auto F Seekers. And then when he was introduced to me and he realized my 20 year project was almost ending, it sort of like, it made sense. Like, oh, let me just sync up with Harth and follow him in the last year of the project. And it all just came together and made sense.

Tom Needham (27:13):

The music, the editing, the filming, really all come together, especially at moments to really, I, I think, kind of capture particularly those moments when you're, you're on the quest trying to get someone, and like you, you can almost feel like you're part of it rooting for you to get it or, you know, feeling bad if you don't get that signature. It's really, really fun film. Have you shown this to like I guess you have in festivals and so forth. What are people saying to you after they've seen the film? Like, what's the typical question that people have for you?

Harth (27:59):

As far, I mean, I don't know what people say to Pierre versus what people say to me. 'cause It might be a different sort of conversation, different response, but most people absolutely love it. And a lot of people, because we've done some q and as at film festivals, a lot of people often ask, who is my favorite participant? Yeah. Who's, you know, my greatest signature. I get that, that a lot. And,

Tom Needham (28:28):

And what's your answer?

Harth (28:30):

My Opa <laugh> and my Opa is my grandfather. You know, German grandfather. Ah, he's my favorite. Yep.

Tom Needham (28:38):

I'm sorry, I cut you off. And, and, and you were, you were going to say in some other things maybe that people ask you, or, or is that the, the number one thing?

Harth (28:46):

I'm trying to think. I mean, people just compliment you know, and they also are impressed by the dedication of the 20 years. And some people especially close friends, didn't know that I also dealt with depression. And I felt it was necessary to be open about that. 'cause I think it's a problem that a lot of people have. Yeah. And I think quite often, society sort of shames it instead of in a healthy way, spotlighting it. I think we can only help each other if we bring more awareness.

Tom Needham (29:20):

I agree. And, and I think that your story is very specific about what you were doing Exactly. But I would imagine that there's lots of people artists, people who are, you know, maybe trying to make it as musicians or podcasters or filmmakers who probably see some of themselves in what you do as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that there's something in there about pursuing dreams and just sticking with it even when it's not easy. And, and then that, that run in that you have with celebrity, you know, that is, is what like you kind of hinted at earlier. So many people want, and, and you're doing it all the time. It's, it's really a remarkable story. I hope there's one day that this Bible can be displayed in public. But, but it's, it's suggested at the end that you're not done with this project.

Harth (30:28):

I don't wanna ruin ruin the film for any viewers who haven't seen it yet, but I've heard such rumors. Yeah. <laugh>.

Tom Needham (30:35):

Well, I, I, I think everyone is gonna wanna see this film <laugh>. And I highly recommend it. It's, it's really one of the, I really enjoyed this film. It's one of the most entertaining films I've seen in a while. We're talking about the Book of Harth, been speaking with Harth Harth, I wanna thank you so much for coming on the program and I, I hope that we can talk again. There's really so many more things I'd love, love to ask you about. Where can people go to, to find out about your work and this film?

Harth (31:08):

So the film's website is the book of Harth.com, H-A-R-T-H Uhh. My website for the Bible project is the Holy Bible project.com. And then my art website is david greg Harth.com. Well, so if you just search on Google, you'll, you'll find all, all sorts of stuff too.

Tom Needham (31:32):

All right. Well, once again, I wanna recommend this film to everybody. I just know everyone's gonna love it. So Harth, thank you so much. It was really a pleasure speaking with you.

Harth (31:42):

Thanks so much,

Tom Needham (31:42):

Tom. Take it easy. Bye-Bye

Harth (31:44):

Bye-Bye.